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JoeCHecht
EVDO Junkie
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 345
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 Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:52 am Post subject: Cap/Overage/rollover gigs - My thoughts |
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I believe the following applies to all providers with a cap:
1) The price for additional 5 gig blocks should not exceed the price for the first 5 gig block. Anything that exceeds that price is taking unfair advantage of a consumer.
2) The customer should be the one that places a cap on overage charges, not the provider (subject to credit limit).
This being said, we should all be writing the FCC, and other governmental representatives, insisting that an investigation be made of companies that are taking unfair advantage of consumers via outrageous overage charges.
We need someone to type up form letters to send, a list of the places to send then to, and to also get the word out to the media channels. We need a website for this purpose.
Other thoughts:
In this market of 5 gig caps, a provider might want to compete by using marketing tactics such as:
a) "Rollover gigs" (works just like rollover minutes).
b) Unlimited nights and weekend plans.
c) "Unlimited Circle" websites (the user could pick a few of websites where they get un-metered service.
So there you have it folks. Want change? Your not going to get it by writing Dan. Our only hope is to use a hammer. Metered service is here. Lets make sure it is fair.
Joe |
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JGriggs
EVDO User
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 62
Location: North Central Indiana
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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Option C isn't going to work real well.
I would personally pick one of the repeater / proxy servers that allow one to get around censorship or firewalls. Thus with one website, you can reach the whole web.
Great thoughts though... |
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waynefoutz
EVDO Junkie
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 222
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:07 pm Post subject: Re: Cap/Overage/rollover gigs - My thoughts |
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| JoeCHecht wrote: | I believe the following applies to all providers with a cap:
1) The price for additional 5 gig blocks should not exceed the price for the first 5 gig block. Anything that exceeds that price is taking unfair advantage of a consumer.
2) The customer should be the one that places a cap on overage charges, not the provider (subject to credit limit).
This being said, we should all be writing the FCC, and other governmental representatives, insisting that an investigation be made of companies that are taking unfair advantage of consumers via outrageous overage charges.
We need someone to type up form letters to send, a list of the places to send then to, and to also get the word out to the media channels. We need a website for this purpose.
Other thoughts:
In this market of 5 gig caps, a provider might want to compete by using marketing tactics such as:
a) "Rollover gigs" (works just like rollover minutes).
b) Unlimited nights and weekend plans.
c) "Unlimited Circle" websites (the user could pick a few of websites where they get un-metered service.
So there you have it folks. Want change? Your not going to get it by writing Dan. Our only hope is to use a hammer. Metered service is here. Lets make sure it is fair.
Joe |
I don't think they really care if it's fair. The phones are getting more and more applications and need more and more bandwidth so they just aren't going to tolerate us PC users using up their bandwidth. You have to remember, Sprint, Verizon, and AT&T are all wireless PHONE companies first, they have no interest in being your primary broadband provider anymore. I think they've made that perfectly clear. It stinks, but that's exactly what's going on. |
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Fox McCloud
EVDO Junkie
Joined: 02 Dec 2006
Posts: 618
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: Re: Cap/Overage/rollover gigs - My thoughts |
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| JoeCHecht wrote: | | 1) The price for additional 5 gig blocks should not exceed the price for the first 5 gig block. Anything that exceeds that price is taking unfair advantage of a consumer. |
It's their network (private property) not yours--if you think that it's unfair, then you can axe your service (vote with your wallet, so to speak)...in addition, if the terms are put forth in the contract, and the consumer agrees to the contract, then it's a no-issue, as the consumer voluntarily agreed to the contract.
| Quote: | | 2) The customer should be the one that places a cap on overage charges, not the provider (subject to credit limit). |
I'm fairly sure you can already do this, if you request it--even if you can't, Sprint still provides a download meter, so it's the customer's duty to keep up with how much GB he has used.
| Quote: | | This being said, we should all be writing the FCC, and other governmental representatives, insisting that an investigation be made of companies that are taking unfair advantage of consumers via outrageous overage charges. |
Again, their property, not yours--if you don't like it, you can go with someone else, or write to the company and explain the situation, then cancel and don't come back. If the contract outlines what happens if you go over a set amount of minutes/gigabytes, and you agree to the contract, then it's a no issue; you agreed to that contract.
| Quote: | In this market of 5 gig caps, a provider might want to compete by using marketing tactics such as:
a) "Rollover gigs" (works just like rollover minutes). |
Nifty idea, but someone could let their account sit for a couple of months, then download an insane amount of gigabytes in a short period of time, which could cause issues....that said, I think this would be a rare thing...still, a decent idea.
| Quote: | | b) Unlimited nights and weekend plans. |
Doubt this will happen....or let me put it this way, "nights" will probably be defined as something like "anything past 1AM" like HughesNet does....that said, even that would be pretty helpful.
| Quote: | | c) "Unlimited Circle" websites (the user could pick a few of websites where they get un-metered service. |
Not fun for them...I doubt they'd do it or want to invest the time/money/software into doing something like this.
| Quote: | | So there you have it folks. Want change? Your not going to get it by writing Dan. Our only hope is to use a hammer. Metered service is here. Lets make sure it is fair. |
It's fair as long as the contract puts forth that it is metered and what the penalties are for going over that set amount of service. If you're ultimately wanting more competition, which I think is the whole point of this point, then I think you'd do better to write your Senator+Congressman and kindly ask them to introduce legislation to abolish the cartelization of the telecommunications industry--which ultimately means abolishing the FCC and nothing more  |
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firedude
EVDO Junkie
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 435
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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Me thinks Fox works for Sprint. 
It does amaze me that some think of bandwidth as a precious and scarce commodity item. Bandwidth is only limited to what the provider wants to provide, nothing more, nothing less. Sure it costs the provider more money to provide more, but their interests of course are their profits, not our service. All of this is nothing more than a marketing tool to a degree.
Joe has some very good points and some would be very fair, except we are NOT the providers main stay unfortunately. "Cell phoners" get unlimited and a bunch of services and we get a cap. It' s all market and profit driven, but what Joe points out is the lopsided of it all. He makes good points. Will anyone listen? Probably not as we don't have a hammer that big. That was evident is all the threads runing against the cap. we're the minority in Sprints market. |
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ralphthemagician
EVDO Newbie
Joined: 25 Jun 2008
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:06 pm Post subject: Re: Cap/Overage/rollover gigs - My thoughts |
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| Fox McCloud wrote: | | JoeCHecht wrote: | | 1) The price for additional 5 gig blocks should not exceed the price for the first 5 gig block. Anything that exceeds that price is taking unfair advantage of a consumer. |
It's their network (private property) not yours--if you think that it's unfair, then you can axe your service (vote with your wallet, so to speak)...in addition, if the terms are put forth in the contract, and the consumer agrees to the contract, then it's a no-issue, as the consumer voluntarily agreed to the contract.
| Quote: | | 2) The customer should be the one that places a cap on overage charges, not the provider (subject to credit limit). |
I'm fairly sure you can already do this, if you request it--even if you can't, Sprint still provides a download meter, so it's the customer's duty to keep up with how much GB he has used.
| Quote: | | This being said, we should all be writing the FCC, and other governmental representatives, insisting that an investigation be made of companies that are taking unfair advantage of consumers via outrageous overage charges. |
Again, their property, not yours--if you don't like it, you can go with someone else, or write to the company and explain the situation, then cancel and don't come back. If the contract outlines what happens if you go over a set amount of minutes/gigabytes, and you agree to the contract, then it's a no issue; you agreed to that contract.
| Quote: | In this market of 5 gig caps, a provider might want to compete by using marketing tactics such as:
a) "Rollover gigs" (works just like rollover minutes). |
Nifty idea, but someone could let their account sit for a couple of months, then download an insane amount of gigabytes in a short period of time, which could cause issues....that said, I think this would be a rare thing...still, a decent idea.
| Quote: | | b) Unlimited nights and weekend plans. |
Doubt this will happen....or let me put it this way, "nights" will probably be defined as something like "anything past 1AM" like HughesNet does....that said, even that would be pretty helpful.
| Quote: | | c) "Unlimited Circle" websites (the user could pick a few of websites where they get un-metered service. |
Not fun for them...I doubt they'd do it or want to invest the time/money/software into doing something like this.
| Quote: | | So there you have it folks. Want change? Your not going to get it by writing Dan. Our only hope is to use a hammer. Metered service is here. Lets make sure it is fair. |
It's fair as long as the contract puts forth that it is metered and what the penalties are for going over that set amount of service. If you're ultimately wanting more competition, which I think is the whole point of this point, then I think you'd do better to write your Senator+Congressman and kindly ask them to introduce legislation to abolish the cartelization of the telecommunications industry--which ultimately means abolishing the FCC and nothing more |
That would all be fine in a competitive marketplace. But in a competitive marketplace you don't go from 4 providers of high speed 3G internet service, with unlimited access at staggered price points, to three providers of high speed 3G access at the same price point with the same arbitrary cap on usage. |
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Fox McCloud
EVDO Junkie
Joined: 02 Dec 2006
Posts: 618
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | That would all be fine in a competitive marketplace. But in a competitive marketplace you don't go from 4 providers of high speed 3G internet service, with unlimited access at staggered price points, to three providers of high speed 3G access at the same price point with the same arbitrary cap on usage. |
It is a competitive market-place, but you have to keep in mind, bandwidth costs money, and when you only have 1-2 T1 lines (that's only 1.5-3.0 megabits per second) backing each tower, one user can wreck total heck on it for the other users pulling from the same tower; when all 3 networks have this "problem", then it's only logical for them to, eventually, develop policies to curb traffic--in this particular incident, they've selected 5GB.
I don't really think EVDO was meant to ever be a broadband replacement--it was meant to transfer data quickly on phones carry out video-messaging, and browsing the 'net faster. Yes, they did come out with broadband cards, but again, I don't think they meant it to be a continuous broadband replacement-even if they did, I don't think they anticipated it to grow so rapidly (they should have though, given their extremely open contract policies).
Since demand is outstripping supply in this particular incident, they're implementing policies to curb supply so that things are balanced and it's equal/fair to more of their customers.
That said, I do think there's a bit of a cartel (though not necessarily in this sector) in the telecommunications industry, but, let me stress, this is due primarily due to the FCC, government regulation, and State/Local governments.
Anyway, that aside...
No, I don't work for Sprint--I like the company, but I also find them to be a terribly managed company...that said, they still have private property rights, as they properly should. |
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ralphthemagician
EVDO Newbie
Joined: 25 Jun 2008
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox McCloud wrote: | | Quote: | | That would all be fine in a competitive marketplace. But in a competitive marketplace you don't go from 4 providers of high speed 3G internet service, with unlimited access at staggered price points, to three providers of high speed 3G access at the same price point with the same arbitrary cap on usage. |
It is a competitive market-place, but you have to keep in mind, bandwidth costs money, and when you only have 1-2 T1 lines (that's only 1.5-3.0 megabits per second) backing each tower, one user can wreck total heck on it for the other users pulling from the same tower; when all 3 networks have this "problem", then it's only logical for them to, eventually, develop policies to curb traffic--in this particular incident, they've selected 5GB.
I don't really think EVDO was meant to ever be a broadband replacement--it was meant to transfer data quickly on phones carry out video-messaging, and browsing the 'net faster. Yes, they did come out with broadband cards, but again, I don't think they meant it to be a continuous broadband replacement-even if they did, I don't think they anticipated it to grow so rapidly (they should have though, given their extremely open contract policies).
Since demand is outstripping supply in this particular incident, they're implementing policies to curb supply so that things are balanced and it's equal/fair to more of their customers.
That said, I do think there's a bit of a cartel (though not necessarily in this sector) in the telecommunications industry, but, let me stress, this is due primarily due to the FCC, government regulation, and State/Local governments.
Anyway, that aside...
No, I don't work for Sprint--I like the company, but I also find them to be a terribly managed company...that said, they still have private property rights, as they properly should. |
It's not competitive. If it was, Sprint would spend the money to upgrade their infrastructure in order to accomodate all the disaeffected users coming in from Verizon and AT&T. Instead, they just kicked them all out. It's a text book case of collusion. Proving it to a court is another story.
And if Sprint didn’t think that their service should be used as a broadband replacement, they shouldn’t have marketed it that way—even going as far as to sell EVDO routers in their stores.
And the current, immediate situation has nothing to do with government regulation, only the lack thereof. |
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Fox McCloud
EVDO Junkie
Joined: 02 Dec 2006
Posts: 618
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:36 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | It's not competitive. If it was, Sprint would spend the money to upgrade their infrastructure in order to accomodate all the disaeffected users coming in from Verizon and AT&T. Instead, they just kicked them all out. It's a text book case of collusion. Proving it to a court is another story. |
First off, this is going to be my last post on this, as this is turning political fast, and I don't really think that's allowed here, not to mention this is veering off-topic.
Voice users have always been and will always be #1, that's who's going to get catered to, and that's who the bandwidth will ultimately be reserve for, at the very end of the day. Given that Sprint is in trouble right now, financially, they are not in the position to go around wielding massive amounts of capital and flinging it into whichever direction they want--they need voice users and they need them bad right now; what do you think will get the most funding?
If you're an ISP and you have a number of users who are the primary strain on your network (and it's to the point of effecting a number of your other users as well), you, as a business owner, will not tolerate it, especially if you notice other customers complaining or you know they're not getting the speeds they are paying for. All in all, you have several choices--you can terminate the user (if that's a power outlined in the contract), or you can change the contract (which will let everyone who wants out, out) and put forth limitations from letting a few users dominate your network. Keep in mind that there's more than just data-card users that use the 12 T1-lines.
| Quote: | | And if Sprint didn’t think that their service should be used as a broadband replacement, they shouldn’t have marketed it that way—even going as far as to sell EVDO routers in their stores. |
Why? To use the router as a back-up for if your main connection goes down, or to remotely work on PLC's, etc. etc. I'm sure they anticipated some people using it for a broadband replacement, but I really doubt they anticipated it being such a niche market.
| Quote: | | And the current, immediate situation has nothing to do with government regulation, only the lack thereof. |
considering that all the telecoms have to comply with FCC regulation, as is, which automatically creates entry levels, not to mention equipment is expensive (which also has to put up with regulation, which means a higher price, as well)...factor that in with taxation, and a ever devaluing dollar, and you have the perfect storm for an environment in which it's hard to enter the market for competitors--of course, I'm sure the other telephone companies don't mind. In all technicality, monopolies cannot exist, nor survive long in an unfettered Free Market--the likes of which hasn't existed for over 100 years.
Let me remind you that AT&T would never have rose to power, as it did, without the help of government; the head of AT&T (forget his name) saw the threat of competition from other emerging telephone companies...he then proceeded to lobby the government for the status of telephone service to be put into the category of "natural monopoly", meaning that telephone services was best and more efficiently provided by one and only one provider--the government fell for it and passed legislation pretty much making AT&T one of the few telephone companies there were.
Either way, I digress. |
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waynefoutz
EVDO Junkie
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 222
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:57 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Fox McCloud"] | Quote: |
Voice users have always been and will always be #1, that's who's going to get catered to, and that's who the bandwidth will ultimately be reserve for, at the very end of the day. Given that Sprint is in trouble right now, financially, they are not in the position to go around wielding massive amounts of capital and flinging it into whichever direction they want--they need voice users and they need them bad right now; what do you think will get the most funding?
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I don't think anyone can ever convince me someone streaming SprintTV on a phone 4-5 hours a day is using less than 5 gigs a month. |
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firedude
EVDO Junkie
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 435
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Sprint is in trouble right now, financially, they are not in the position to go around wielding massive amounts of capital and flinging it into whichever direction they want--they need voice users and they need them bad right now; what do you think will get the most funding? |
Mismanagement. Again, I have no sympathy for a company who puts themselves in this position. They offered and contracted with customers for a product they couldn't deliver because of costs. Plain and simple. What do you expect? sigh everyone up for unlimited data plans then bail against their customers contracts. Bad business. Like I've said time and time again they could have at least honored the current contracts until their end like Verizon did. Poor PR does wonders for a company.
Bottom line is THEY put themselves in this position, NOT us. All they did with us is wash their hands of our existing contracts and closed the door on us. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
Suppose we said hey Sprint, the economy is bad and our finances are short so we can only pay every other month? Yeah right.
Come on think about it. We entered a CONTRACT with THEM and they chose for whatever reason not honor it. Could we do that? Sure, for a FEE. Dead fish on the beach really smell bad don't they.
Bottom line they should have had the foresight and not offer their customers something they cannot provide. Again, mismanagement. To top it off they sold unlimited contracts right up to the day of the change in TOS and didn't even tell the new customers and hid their notices deep into a website and confusing fine print on bills. A company that will tell you 10 different things in one day depending on who you talk to is NOT organized or productive and does not hold their customers best interests in hand. Sorry. Get real, they have NO sympathy from me.
A big company like that could learn a lot from 3G and the folks there. They at least tell it like it is, support their customers and go out of their way. Sprint management should spend a couple weeks with them and they might learn something about customer relations which plays a big part in the game of profit in my book. |
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